Some ideas

[Diceman]

Were talking serious development time here but it may well be worth it:

Idea 1> Tying together the 3 card plus discussion and the guitar chords discussion featured in the Zionworx wishlist forum - we have a viable, useful and practical idea here. Imagine for a moment that screen 1 is the operator, screen 2 is the congregation with words, screen three is the worship team with words and guitar tab. Limited application - possibly. One could argue that worship leaders should learn their music properly, after all God didn't cut any corners when creating the universe so why should we when rehearsing our worship. But perhaps here lies the key. Worship, Rehearse. Although scriptural were encouraged to have ordered worship to avoid chaos, live worship unlike any other musical performance medium has the outside effect of the spirit and as such the set can go out of the window and the need for an appropriate back-catalogue track may arise. This is where this function would prove invaluable, in a similar way in which digital words liberated worship leaders to attack the back catalogue of songs.

Idea 2> Many modern graphics cards have video in as well as out. This is displayed in the last stage of the card process, where a video overlay key colour is used (along with the co-ordinates of the overlays dimensions) to paste motion video back over the top of the created video image in the RAMDAC. If you've ever opened up a live video window and let a paint programme obscure the video window, you will notice an interesting effect when you use the correct colour (the key colour) to paint in the paint window. The video appears through where you have painted. This opens up an area of huge possibility. Imagine having a live video running behind your text without the need for an external key generator or mixing desk. I've tested this concept using win PowerVCR running on an Nvidia Geforce4. I used PowerPoint to put up my text, with the keycolour of the video card as the background (use a screen dump of your live video window, paste it into a paint package and use the pipette/sample tool to get the rgb value). With the live video window maximized but completely obscured by PowerPoint the overlay is completely in your control to mask in whatever way you see fit.

Ok so imagine that we build the overlay feature into Zion works. We save hundreds of people the cost of a mixing overlay. Obviously they won't get an A/B roll mixer with the nice Timebase correction - but then that's why people pay for desks (interestingly if you use a couple of maplin 4way audio switch boxes on the back of a two channel A/B roll desk you can bounce up your channel numbers to as many as you want without frame drop because the desk is buffering it - we used this for years with yfriday before we could afford a big desk).

Technical restrictions: You need to have a bog standard PCI video card as the control display so that you can free-up the all singing all dancing AGP card for doing the funky video-in/out overlay trick.

Idea 3> Support for video over IP. This is just a pipe dream at the moment. But imagine shuttling video around your venue digitally through Ethernet not horrible old composite or y/c sep analogue. Each CAt5 cable has redundancy for another set of Ethernet lines in it already (IÂ?ve tested this and it works). Slapping two LAN adapters (4.99 each from PCworld) in one machine attached to an adapter that feeds of one Ethernet cable. Bridging software already exists to join the bandwidth giving a hypothetical speed of T-base 200 (400 if youÂ?re talking full duplex). Encoder software is free for download from some of the more adventurous video over IP providers so encoding is not a problem. But what about decoding surely another PC is required at the other end.

Now here is the shortfall - yes. Where will we get cheap beastie PC units that can take IP video and turn it into analogue composite and VGA. At the moment I know of only one and its £100 a pop (from toys r us). The X-Box. Out of the Box it has LAN, video out and guts designed for the purpose of lumping huge quantities of video data around via it's so called 'hyper-transport bus' (A fancy name for a load of wires connecting the North and South Bridges - read more by searching for xbox moding). Once modified the x-box runs Linux and does the job (interestingly there's an open source development of video over IP - sorry I haven�t got the URL).

Any thoughts guys (and gals) - you can slag the ideas - they are open for discussion after all .

God Bless

Diceman
diceman54@mailcity.com

[zer0burn316]

hey there it sounds all cool, but the question arises to the ones who are not as technical as others, how can they benifit from this, maybe it is good, maybe bad, but keep in mind alot of users are dealing with just a laptop and a projector such as my self, the though has occured to me that is i got a 4 port USB hub, can it some how be transfered into a 4 channel mixer. and if so, can it be implimented into a program like zionworx. see i am a freelance videographer for ministery, but I chose to use webcams, because no one really uses them in the feild and it lightens the load with mall cameras, what you think

[intuitas]

Hi Diceman,

Possibilities sound interesting for those with the technology.
Unfortunately we would not make use of it since we only have minimum spec PC (all our other funds ploughed into audio and purchasing the projector).

We tend to favour simple presentation and background to allow our (possibly older) congregation to focus on the worship.

On another issue it sounds as if your networking and connectivity knowledge would be useful to the ZionWorx community in general. Mine is too dated since I generally provide support for legacy hardware and software - there are still lots of us out there in the Win95/98 world.

Regards,

Paul

[Diceman]

In general all three ideas are for more complex setups than the basic user requires. But that isn't to say that we can't use them. There is the issue of kit cost. But that said,

idea 1 (see top of post) works with cheap, old pci video cards which are two a penny (i've tried it under 98se and got it working for a local church p100 with zionworx). If users have a two card setup its easy to add a third (watch out for memory addressing - you may need to tweak here - see Symantech's website for system optimisation tutorials).

idea 2 is only really for people who already have this kit in there machine (eg a prebought jobby). If you have this kit and would like overlay, adding a second graphics card (cheap PCI thing from computer fares etc. - Ati stuff works well) as a control screen saves you the cost of a key generator.

idea 3 - as stated it's pie in the sky - but still open for comment.

Diceman

[Diceman]

zer0burn316

your usb video source sounds interesting Since they already exist: usb digitizers and as you've said cams. What are the possibilities for mixing these source streams. Aside from the obvious differences in format (dimensions, rez, aspect ratio, colour depth, interlacing etc.) which would need to be addressed through a filter. What are the contraints of WDM (the windows capture architecture)? Can it except multiple streams simultaneously or is it like the TWAIN scanning standard limited to switching between sources - More reading required.

Diceman

[Williamting]

Diceman,

idea 1 (see top of post) works with cheap, old pci video cards which are two a penny (i've tried it under 98se and got it working for a local church p100 with zionworx).

Thanks for your great idea!! I tried it during lunch today and indeed it works. So I have dual display for less than a penny! (I have a couple of not-so-old ATI cards in my drawer!) Special skill is not needed for anyone wishing to set it up. It is as easy as drop in the card and power on with Win 98 (I am also using Win98se). It automatically detect the video card and install the driver. The new card may become your primary display, which mean that you need to plug the monitor into the new card.

This can all be done in 15 minutes. So, I hope this will encourage more to try it out. This also means that you can use Zionworx on relatively older machine without exotic display card.


God bless,
William

Post note: Over the weekend, I tested using a combination of all my display cards and I found that not all combination work. I noticed that one of the cards which WIN 98 didn't have the driver failed to work. This card was made back in 1997! Another card which didn't work make use of the AGP interface - specialised slot on the motherboard. 3-Dec-2003.

[Christian]

Imagine having a live video running behind your text without the need for an external key generator or mixing desk...Ok so imagine that we build the overlay feature into ZionWorx. We save hundreds of people the cost of a mixing overlay. Obviously they won't get an A/B roll mixer with the nice Timebase correction... <snip>

Hi Diceman,

Good to have a video techie onboard!

If I understand you correctly, then 'idea 2' is pretty much what I'm aiming at for v3.0 - using DirectX video overlay to mix alpha-blended text over moving video - either from MPEG/AVI, DVD, or live video/web camera input etc - without the need for external mixing hardware.

Regarding the actual hardware input for live video, from my experiments it seems that you can use, for example, a USB webcam or TV card composite input in the same way. So, even if you have a modern video card that has a physical video input itself, then as long as the video card driver registers with Windows that it offers a 'video capture device' then it should behave just the same...I hope...

Keep those ideas coming!

Christian.

[Diceman]

...using DirectX video overlay to mix alpha-blended text over moving video - either from MPEG/AVI, DVD, or live video/web camera input etc - without the need for external mixing hardware.

Brilliant! - looking forward to v3

Not sure if it's the directx overlay or a propiety harware one on the video card (or if they are both one and the same) I was using, possibly worth investigating.

I was thinking. I found a little vj pragramme that someone had knocked up in macromedia director using the apple quicktime support. It wasn't pretty but it did something really funky. It allowed the user to preassign video clips to keys on the keyboard, que video clips up on a time line with the option of looping (individual clips or whole segments). It could even loop back and forth (audio and video) and allowed the user to manually scrub the video like one would scratch a record. Now obviously these later features aren't of much use to the average zionworx user. But the first ones could be.

Imagine zion worx has an additional video mixer tab. In here there is a timeline, onto which clips and WDM sources can be draganddropped. The biggest problem with running video while doing words is loosing control of the video while managing the next screen of words. This live timeline would allow you to drop clips infront of the advancing play head. set there properties to loop, or just let the head run on cutting to the next clip that has been dropped in. You could drop WDM sources too. Setting the head to advance off the source after a time limit, or an advance key is pressed. You could also asign keys to sources or clips to be triggered from outside of the video tab while using zionworx main window. Transitions are processor intensive and can be distracting, so with the exception of perhaps a disolve/fadetoblack, transition development could be largely ignored. Audio is not an issue (since this is mixed seperatly anyway).

The advantage of the active/live timeline would be to allow the kind of short term forward planning that you can only do on the fly in the heat of the moment during production. An option to load and save timelines and to set a default (if nothing else is supplied show this) image/video/source would mean the viewer would never hit a brick wall of nothing if the operator failed to atend to the video mixing.

Layering would be nice as well, to allow the user to put an animated logo clip in the corner of a live source or throw a name tag on the bottom of a live source visiting guest speaker shot.

This is really what we were dreaming of 10 years ago but the consumer technology wasn't up to it. It would be ideal for youth events and services where the this range of media is quite normal. And with being on a seperate tab. It would be out of the way for all those who didn't need it.

Sorry I wrote alot - got rather excited [MSN has a nerdy smiley]

Diceman

[intuitas]

Hi Dice,

Share your enthusiasm - although your galloping ahead of some of us.

I gather what you are proposing is to be able to provide a continuous stream of video background either as clips in a playlist or clips interspersed with cuts to one or more live sources - plus the capacity to overlay picture in picture - and to drive all this from the separate video mixing tab.

Can see how this would go over well with youth programs etc. (just a pity we don't have that focus in our church).

Would be in favour of this as you suggest with those of us (for the time being) unable to take advantage of the features able to ignore the tab.

The only constraint I would prefer to see imposed is that ZionWorx would still be useable on machines running the current minimum spec. - or at least all the existing features would still be available on such a machine. One of the things I like least about the M$ juggernaut is its regular ramping up of hardware requirements for rather dubious 'beneficial' features.

I shall place a copy of V2 in avery safe place just in case we find our hardware isn't up to supporting V3.

Keep the suggestions rolling

Paul

[Diceman]

I'm with you on the support issue.

On a technical level. getting mpeg clips and realtime stuff to cut together without a judder could be a little more complex. I know the quicktime app (mentioned earlier) I have, can manage it quite seamlessly, but it is limited to a certain number of codecs. Some things might be technically more difficult than others.

For example: cutting to the middle of an mpeg encoded file may be complex. Only one frame in 8 contains the full image (the others are modifications of every 8th frame). These are called B frames and I frames (other compression algorithmns are sometimes more complex). But in short what this means is that any library interface used to splice these clips together would have to minutly pre-roll clips depending on the in-point. This may already be catored to in the directx interface - although I don't know as this is outside of my expertise. Depending on its metthod for handling this, latency in a clip kicking in may be symptomatic. The only way around this problem would be to pre-que the first few seconds of each clip in the library of 'to-be-used' clips in active memory. Disk access would probably be too slow to whisk to the correct frame. There may also be limitations in which formats could be used.

In terms of hardware support, if the users PC can't play full screen mpeg on the secondary monitor - it is doubtful that on an older system you'd be able to use this feature, and as you say. It would sit out of the way, so as not to interfere with the interface.

As Zionworx in revised, and features are added, it may become nessesary for a re-working of the interface to rationalise these features into a more appropriate working method. But for now, and for what it does - zionworx is perfect (thanks to Christian).

Diceman

[zer0burn316]

hey there it is cool to hear all the other ideas from others who use the same product as i do, you guys have cool input and stuff i just wanted to let you know that zionworx has the potential to be an awesome display software and should be shared with more people i know i promote it all i can at youth ministry conferences and stuff like that anyways be blessed

[zer0burn316]

hey here is a new idea for you guys to think about. instead of one window in the middle showing what is onscreen, maybe split it into 2, one for the actual onscreen and the other for the next to go to screen, that way you see what is onscreen and what is coming next, just a thought.

[Diceman]

Like a cue preview?

[zer0burn316]

yeah a cue screen that way you can see both what is on screen and then what is coming next that way it be easier to use and easier to see what is and what will be an you can ger a heads start before the audience does.

[CustardFD]

Were talking serious development time here but it may well be worth it:

Idea 2> If you've ever opened up a live video window and let a paint programme obscure the video window, you will notice an interesting effect when you use the correct colour (the key colour) to paint in the paint window. The video appears through where you have painted. This opens up an area of huge possibility. Imagine having a live video running behind your text without the need for an external key generator or mixing desk. I've tested this concept using win PowerVCR running on an Nvidia Geforce4. I used PowerPoint to put up my text, with the keycolour of the video card as the background (use a screen dump of your live video window, paste it into a paint package and use the pipette/sample tool to get the rgb value). With the live video window maximized but completely obscured by PowerPoint the overlay is completely in your control to mask in whatever way you see fit.

God Bless

Diceman
diceman54@mailcity.com

I have read the other posts, but this appeared to be the most logical to quote as a refresher for people.

I've done this in the past at events using an nVidia based card, but the major problem I came across was that the only way to get decent performance was to use an overlay with the lyric window background set to the key colour, as Diceman suggested. The problem I have come across is that the overlay is always positioned relative to the desktop's (0,0) location: i.e. the top-left of the primary monitor.

Why is this a problem? Even with the nVidia nView drivers tweaked to stop as many windows and things opening on the primary monitor, it was very hard work and required hours of planning ahead - something that isn't always a luxuary. Any unplanned settings changes, opening a file, etc, could end up ruining the output and atmosphere in the service because a window popped up on the live output and distracted everyone.

Based on Christian's reply, it sounds like he is using key colours to overlay an image, in which case I think this may be a significant problem. Can anyone comment on this?

Dan.